Tinderbox Longevity

Hello Everyone!

I am new to Tinderbox and very excited by the idea of getting my hands dirty and learning the software so that I can actualize some of my research and writing goals that have been dormant. I initially downloaded the software about 10 years ago, but was a bit too intimated to learn it at that time. Well, I’ve pulled the box back out, and testing the waters once again. I just had a great conversation with one of the users where I discussed some of my concerns about the longevity of the platform. He suggested that I post my concerns on the forum.

What do we know about the longevity of the software? Will it be around for the next 10-15 years? Learning Tinderbox is a bit of a learning curve. While I very much appreciate all the terrific advice and support which exists, I’m a little hesitate to invest in the time needed to learn it, if the software will go away sometime in the future.

Any insights that you can provide on the topic is greatly appreciated.

Warmly,
DrTai

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This came up a little more than a year ago. (Don’t be misled by the title of the thread, the first few posts probably address much of your concern.)

Let me add that eventually all of us will “go away sometime in the future.” I believe it was a famous economist who observed that, “In the long run, we’re all dead.”

That said, I don’t think the future of Tinderbox should weigh too heavily on your decision. I’ve been paying for updates for two decades now, and I’m not an academic. I don’t make a living using it. I just love the application.

Drop in on a meetup, share what you hope to achieve with Tinderbox, and I’m confident you can be brought up on step quite readily. It is a robust suite of capabilities that can appear intimidating at first; but you don’t need to master all of it at once, and can become very productive using only a fraction of its potential.

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I’ve been using Tinderbox for 17 years, and would hope to use it another 17, though it is very likely I will expire long before Tinderbox does.

Consider some facts. First, Tinderbox files are XML, a standard, non-proprietary method for storing structured information. Second, the Tinderbox app does not rely on external dependencies to operate – not on other software or on web-based functionality. These two factors demonstrate an independence from dependence, and integration^^, hard to find in other modern software. That works in our favor.

For example, if the Craft company ceased operating, Craft would cease operating. But, if Eastgate ceased operating, Tinderbox would live on.

As @dmrogers suggested, move on to learning Tinderbox. It’s fine to watch videos, but hold off from that and stay hands on with your own projects (not someone else’s), and your own data. Start slow. Explore. Dig into aTbRef as needed – slowly.

Most of all, play and have fun learning.


^^ For completeness, be aware that it is possible of course to create integrations with other software and Tinderbox, and Tinderbox out-of-the-box can view data created with DEVONthink, Finder, and some other apps. This is entirely optional and in the operator's hands, at their discretion.
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Ask not what Tinderbox can do for you; ask what you can do with Tinderbox

Yet that line of thinking is, unintentionally, setting ourselves up to fail. What those users I see struggling to use the app tend to in common is to have no clear purpose as to what purpose they have for the app. They are trying to ‘use’ the app rather than do something with the app. I’ve used the app since 2003 (v2.3.4) when the app still ran on System or OS X. I have been writing aTbRef since 2005 and Tinderbox has been central to my daily work ever since. Indeed, part of the impetus of writing the TBX that creates aTbRef was simply to explore and to learn how to use Tinderbox’s HTML export features effectively (q.v. have point to your learning). More accurately, today’s aTbRef was the accidental outcome for exploring how HTML export worked … after which I kept on exploring all aspects of the app—partly so others don’t have to!

Tinderbox’s self-description as a ‘toolbox for notes’ is correct. Going and buying a set of woodwork tools doesn’t make us a cabinet maker, but gives us the potential to be one. Still, we might just use those same tools to make the simplest of bookshelves … and that is OK—if that is our need and intent. It’s no use fretting at what others have and fear we are missing out: our neighbour drives a sports car because they are a racing driver, our car get the kids to school and us to work—it suits our need.

If we do want what someone else has (or a similar thing) then we don’t so much need their TBX as to understand how the later was constructed. What subset of tools in the toolbox are most used, and in what manner? Pursued thus the learning becomes easier—or at least more tractable. The oft perceived ‘difficulty’ is we don’t know what to learn as we don’t know what we are trying to learn (so can’t gauge our progress).

The Tinderbox community, to my observation of 20+ years of it, is that it is very open-handed with its insight and assistance. The community can help best if asked questions that allow transfer of expertise. So, “What’s the best sort of bookcase” merely trawls opinion. “How do I make a bookcase?” or “What are the gotchas for a novice building a bookcase?” unlock a wealth of experience and insight. For instance, which tools in the toolbox get used most, and in what order. So, for the new user, this indicates which parts of the app’s toolbox to engage with first. Others don’t necessarily care about your bookshelf’s details but can share insights about the making of their own bookshelf in a manner that will help you with your own work. Understanding that latter point helps when asking for (free [sic]) assistance.

Above, I use a woodworking metaphor deliberately—I’m not referring to making digital bookshelves!—to emphasise the point that most of us will never (need to) use every tool in the toolbox, yet at outset the choice of tools can be overwhelming. a chisel is a chisel and does what a chisel does. It gains real purpose when used to make a particular joint for a particular purpose.

Clicking File ▸ New simply opens an empty design space. Its value—and the app’s value— arises from our intent as to what we then put in that space.

@PaulWalters kindly mentions aTbRef and I’d agree the advice of ‘slowly’. The resource is very deliberately not a how-to. Rather it explains what the tools in the toolbox do: what they are for, how they expect to be told. In the woodworking context above, it might explain that you hold the wooden end and the sharp end is used for precise cuts to the wood by striking the wooden end. The latter is obvious once you know, not if you don’t. At the same time it may inform you that you’re never going to need (to use) that tool, which is OK.

Good luck with your Tinderbox journey.

†. That said, much of my daily work is early-stage analysis, i.e. knowledge/sense-making, where such a toolbox app is a real boon. Were I an accountant or a fishmonger, I might use it less often but still find it useful. YMMV.

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Hi Dave,

Thanks so much for your response. The observation that all of us will eventually “go away sometime in the future” is a profound statement about life. As much as we might wish otherwise, it is indeed true. I had a chance to read through the thread that you mentioned and found it to be useful. There is such a robust community of Tinderbox users and I can’t help but conclude that the power of the software is the reason why folks have invested the time in using it for so many years. I absolutely will drop in on a meetup and learn more on how folks are using this tool and I believe that the time invested in learning it for the present moment will yield dividends.

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Dear Mark,

Many thanks for your thorough response and the woodworking metaphor certainly makes sense. One user on a video tutorial compared Tinderbox to a pencil which reinforces your point that the utility of the software lies in having a clear understanding of your intended purpose and vision or outcome that you want to achieve with it. Thus, whether than getting into the weeds and concluding that it’s just too difficult as I did nearly a decade ago, I see much value in taking the time to think through my knowledge management and organizational goals and then learning the necessary know-how (at first at least) that will help me achieve my goals. That is where the initial investment should be.

Hi Paul,

Thanks for your insights. I agree, starting slowly on your own projects, and not trying to mirror someone else’s, is certainly the best approach. That’s a little hard to do when you’re at a loss, but as @mwra notes, having a clear purpose for the uses of the app, will certainly help. That’s where I need to spend the bulk of my time uncovering these next few days. I initially wanted it for mind-mapping. That only scratches the surface, but it’s en entry point for the software for me.

Don’t let the tool lead. Lead the tool. One rarely walks into their workshop, sees a hammer, and thinks “oh, a hammer – what can I build”. You bring your problems, hopes, curiosities to the tool, not the other way around.

Great use. That’s how I started. Best mind-mapper on the market, in fact. Even for the better part of a year that’s all I ever did with Tinderbox. That eventually led to more exploration.

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@eastgate addressed this question last year.

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I write about some of these systems in Chapter 5 (Influences And Other Paths) of Thinking With Tinderbox.

One thing worth mentioning is that, a couple of decades ago, it was not uncommon for consequential tools to vanish because their developer or their platform vanished. For example, when Doug Engelbart at Tymshare lost his PDP-10, there wasn’t any more Augment; if you used Augment, you were stuck.

That doesn’t really happen any more. Indeed, you can run Engelbart’s Augment again in a simulator, and you can read the files; Engelbart’s biographer did it. Things that were just too difficult to be worthwhile in 1990 are better now.

Between better file formats and better software tools, you’re likely to be able to find a life raft in case of emergency. But I don’t expect you’ll need one.

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Tinderbox definitely grows on you after enough time has elapsed in using it. I tried moving on from Tinderbox recently for greener pastures only to find out (the hard way) the other pastures are a little too green. It doesn’t take long to understand why Tinderbox stands the test of time.

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Mark Bernstein’s foresight with his board deserves a salute`. Stability into the future is critical.

A very sad case in point is Nisus, a powerful and well respected Mac word processor. A thread titled “Is Nisus moribund” has been one of the most active threads on the Nisus forum for many long months without response from Nisus.

Nisus.com is intermittently unavailable. Joe Kissell, a passionate Nisus user and author of all those “Taking Control Of” books posted that he’s been unable to get in touch with anyone at Nisus.

Customer support email is no longer answered.

Nobody knows what has happened. The only interaction with Nisus that’s presently working is automated purchases. The opinions generally expressed on their forums is that Nisus is receding from the public stage without any board to carry it forward.

I hope Nisus roars back to life. A few years ago I discovered Mellel actually suits me better but I’ve always had a fondness for Nisus.

Mr. Bernstein deserves a round of applause for his board, and here’s hoping his days are long enough for science to finally find a fountain of youth. Considering the progress his personal investment and passion for Tinderbox has facilitated, the world needs more like him.

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I’ll get in touch with Martin from Nisus; perhaps we can help.

I’m far more interested in looking ahead. We’ve got a fascinating Tinderbox project (“Back To The Information City”) submitted to ACM Hypertext 2025. You’ll have it soon. Here at the Web Conference, I may have found a possible collaboration — even more outside the box — for a Tinderbox project for Hypertext 2026. I’m starting another book about which I’m very excited — so much so that it’s actually a little hard to talk properly about Thinking With Tinderbox!

If I’m planning to write a very big book with Tinderbox, you can too.

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